Infumy
09-12-2007, 11:12
There is only one glaring issue with the warrior class that I feel needs to be addressed before the expansion. That is tanking 5-mans while not spec'd prot.
Before I get flamed, 140 days /played on my warrior and I have tanked every 5-man in the game as non-prot, and a couple of heroics too. But for most of those, I at least had 15 points in protection for defiance. The problem is this: I haven't tanked any 5-mans as non-prot in about 5 months, and I do not plan to do so any time before the xpac comes out sometime next year. And if things don't change, I probably won't do so in the next xpac either. I realize DK's will be able to tank somewhat, and that should alleviate the tank shortage, but this is no reason to not fix the warrior class.
On to the crux of the problem: a blue (kalgan?) has posted that they intend arms/fury warriors to be the baseline for tanking, with feral druids, prot warriors and prot pallies above them, other specs of those classes below them. But anything from arms/fury on up should be viable. Right now they are not.
It is not the mitigation abilities of DPS warriors that needs buffing, it is the threat generation. When I get asked to tank a pug or guild run on a day that I'm not prot spec'd, I don't even consider it. It's not worth the headache of fighting with the whole group for aggro. Even the good players, I'm not talking about the mages popping trinkets and pom pyro'ing on the pull. Good players who try to watch their aggro will still rip it off of a DPS warrior, because we can't generate any aggro, especially without huge amounts of rage flowing in. This is because warrior threat generation does not scale. In fact, it reverse-scales.
Let me explain. Most warrior threat generating moves have a static +threat attached to them. Sunder armor, heroic strike, revenge, shield slam, devastate and thunderclap are our threat generating moves. Prot warriors are the only ones who have shield slam and devastate, and since those are 31 and 41 point talents, respectively, the other specs can't pick them up without going mostly prot.
Now, shield slam and devastate scale slightly. Their +threat component remains static, but at least their damage increases with gear, so their threat generation scales, just slower than DPS does.
The rest of those threat generating abilities do not scale at all. From the time we get them wearing all greens tanking level 65 instances to the time we're trying to tank a heroic in full epics, they generate the same threat. The only way that warrior threat generation scales is with the mobs we fight... if they kick the crap out of us, we get more rage and can spam heroic strike more often. This mostly helps raid tanks keep up their threat generation on pace with their DPS.. it does not apply in 5-mans because unless we have crap for gear, we just don't get pounded that badly.
So. I did most of my tanking outside of prot spec on my way up to 70 and then shortly after I hit 70 (one of the first on the server). At the time, my threat generation wasn't good, but it was workable. And again, I was 15 points into prot for at least defiance. Back at 60, it was the same deal. At both those stages, sitting in defensive stance, and knowing how to manage your rage and threat, and with a lot of use of sunder armor, I could hold aggro through an instance. Right now at 70? No chance. Some tanks don't even use sunder armor anymore because its threat generation is so poor in comparison to the output that DPS classes have. That's a mistake for them if they don't use it at all, since it enables the use of devastate on longer fights, and buffs the damage output of all melee classes significantly. But the threat generation is terrible. And worse, it's the best use that non-prot warriors have of their rage to generate threat.
Now, moving forward... DPS scaling is going to continue. We've already crossed the point that the static threat generation moves of non-prot warriors are left way in the dust. If something doesn't change before the expansion, the tank shortage will continue until all the new DK's start catching up with people grinding to 80 after the expansion. Because tanking without prot spec isn't worth the frustration it causes both the tank and the DPS, and is simply no longer viable with the current threat generation tools.
There are any number of ways to fix this, and I don't much care which you choose, but something has to be changed.
Before I get flamed, 140 days /played on my warrior and I have tanked every 5-man in the game as non-prot, and a couple of heroics too. But for most of those, I at least had 15 points in protection for defiance. The problem is this: I haven't tanked any 5-mans as non-prot in about 5 months, and I do not plan to do so any time before the xpac comes out sometime next year. And if things don't change, I probably won't do so in the next xpac either. I realize DK's will be able to tank somewhat, and that should alleviate the tank shortage, but this is no reason to not fix the warrior class.
On to the crux of the problem: a blue (kalgan?) has posted that they intend arms/fury warriors to be the baseline for tanking, with feral druids, prot warriors and prot pallies above them, other specs of those classes below them. But anything from arms/fury on up should be viable. Right now they are not.
It is not the mitigation abilities of DPS warriors that needs buffing, it is the threat generation. When I get asked to tank a pug or guild run on a day that I'm not prot spec'd, I don't even consider it. It's not worth the headache of fighting with the whole group for aggro. Even the good players, I'm not talking about the mages popping trinkets and pom pyro'ing on the pull. Good players who try to watch their aggro will still rip it off of a DPS warrior, because we can't generate any aggro, especially without huge amounts of rage flowing in. This is because warrior threat generation does not scale. In fact, it reverse-scales.
Let me explain. Most warrior threat generating moves have a static +threat attached to them. Sunder armor, heroic strike, revenge, shield slam, devastate and thunderclap are our threat generating moves. Prot warriors are the only ones who have shield slam and devastate, and since those are 31 and 41 point talents, respectively, the other specs can't pick them up without going mostly prot.
Now, shield slam and devastate scale slightly. Their +threat component remains static, but at least their damage increases with gear, so their threat generation scales, just slower than DPS does.
The rest of those threat generating abilities do not scale at all. From the time we get them wearing all greens tanking level 65 instances to the time we're trying to tank a heroic in full epics, they generate the same threat. The only way that warrior threat generation scales is with the mobs we fight... if they kick the crap out of us, we get more rage and can spam heroic strike more often. This mostly helps raid tanks keep up their threat generation on pace with their DPS.. it does not apply in 5-mans because unless we have crap for gear, we just don't get pounded that badly.
So. I did most of my tanking outside of prot spec on my way up to 70 and then shortly after I hit 70 (one of the first on the server). At the time, my threat generation wasn't good, but it was workable. And again, I was 15 points into prot for at least defiance. Back at 60, it was the same deal. At both those stages, sitting in defensive stance, and knowing how to manage your rage and threat, and with a lot of use of sunder armor, I could hold aggro through an instance. Right now at 70? No chance. Some tanks don't even use sunder armor anymore because its threat generation is so poor in comparison to the output that DPS classes have. That's a mistake for them if they don't use it at all, since it enables the use of devastate on longer fights, and buffs the damage output of all melee classes significantly. But the threat generation is terrible. And worse, it's the best use that non-prot warriors have of their rage to generate threat.
Now, moving forward... DPS scaling is going to continue. We've already crossed the point that the static threat generation moves of non-prot warriors are left way in the dust. If something doesn't change before the expansion, the tank shortage will continue until all the new DK's start catching up with people grinding to 80 after the expansion. Because tanking without prot spec isn't worth the frustration it causes both the tank and the DPS, and is simply no longer viable with the current threat generation tools.
There are any number of ways to fix this, and I don't much care which you choose, but something has to be changed.